Ep. 52 : Michelle Chalfant Built Something Incredible. Then She Fired Her Whole Team.
Michelle Chalfant built a globally recognized brand with over 11 million podcast downloads, a certification program, and a book, and then she dismantled the whole thing. Not because it failed. Because it stopped being hers.
Michelle Chalfant, therapist, author, life coach, and creator of The Adult Chair® Model, sits down with Laura for one of the most honest conversations this show has ever had about what it actually takes to scale something soul-aligned. Michelle didn't set out to build a company. She backed into it almost by accident, going from a full private practice to a 10-person team within a year, and then spending the next few years figuring out how to lead something she never planned to build.
The pivot in this episode isn't a career change. It's the moment Michelle stopped deferring to everyone around her and started trusting herself as a CEO. She describes sitting in the shower, hands on her knees, unable to breathe, asking if she was really supposed to let everyone go, and hearing back loud and clear: "We don't want you to turn the Titanic around. We want you to sink it and get into a catamaran." She listened. She let her team go. She grieved it for two months. And then she rebuilt from scratch with a one-person operation built on ease, flow, and intuition.
What Michelle describes is not a productivity hack or a scaling strategy. It is a complete reconfiguration of what success is allowed to look and feel like. Her current team runs leaner and more efficiently than her 10-person operation ever did, and she refuses to use the word busy because, as she puts it, the energy of it feels horrible. This episode is for anyone who has built something impressive and still feels like something is fundamentally off.
What You'll Hear
✔️Michelle describes hearing a literal voice in the shower telling her to sink the Titanic and get into a catamaran, and why she finally listened.
✔️After scaling to a 10-person team almost overnight, Michelle realized she had been handing her power to everyone else in the room.
✔️Michelle's current business philosophy has no 10-year plan, no revenue targets, just a private chef, a home near her kids, and the question "what would be fun?"
✔️Laura breaks down Michelle's leadership transformation into five steps in real time, and Michelle stops her cold on number four.
"You're gonna take the one person that I wanted to keep? I knew everyone else had to go. They just... it was just done."
- Michelle Chalfant
If this conversation hit something in you, do not wait for the feeling to pass. Book a free 20-minute clarity call with Laura and figure out together what your next aligned step actually looks like.
Book a free 20-min clarity call: https://leadintactwithlaura.as.me/free-clarity-call
Not quite ready for a call? Start here:
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Links and Resources
Michelle Chalfant's website: www.theadultchair.com
Michelle on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themichellechalfant
Michelle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-chalfant/
Book a free 20-min clarity call with Laura: https://leadintactwithlaura.as.me/free-clarity-call
Heart-Aligned Career Transition Starter: https://www.leadintact.com/freebies/heart-aligned-career
The Pivot Point Podcast: https://www.leadintact.com/the-pivot-point-podcast
Laura's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@leadintact
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You made the move, or maybe you're about to, or maybe you're still in it, showing up, performing, delivering, while something quiet in the background keeps saying, "This is not it." Either way, something has shifted, and you can't un-know it. Here's what nobody tells you. The landing strip is a little rocky once you come down from the high of accomplishment.
There are moments of real excitement, real clarity, like, "Yes, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be." And then night comes, and the anxiety rolls in, the what ifs, the what am I actually doing? Not because you made the wrong choice, by the way, but because you're standing in the space between who you were and who you're becoming.
Done pretending this is enough, done pushing through, done ignoring the thing that keeps pulling at you. That's exactly where this podcast lives. I'm Laura [00:01:00] Dionisio, founder of Lead Intact, and I've been exactly where you are. The corporate success that stopped feeling like success, the leap that was equal parts terrifying and necessary, the messy, non-linear process of building something that actually fits, and learning to trust yourself through all of it.
This is the pivot point. Real conversations about what's actually happening beneath the surface and what it takes to build a life that feels as good as it looks. Not just the wins, the attempts too. Because I'm not here to romanticize the journey. I'm here to show you what it's really like. Let's get into it.
Welcome Michelle to the Pivot Point Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on here. Thank you for making the time to be here with me
Of course. I'm [00:02:00] excited to be with you and to be on your incredible show. Thank you for the invite. I always love my time with you, so there's gonna be a lot of smiling and laughing. Maybe even tears, Laura, you
I've,
right?
wearing, uh, waterproof mascara. Um, I didn't intend to. That was just the first one that I got, so I don't know. It, it might happen. It might happen. Um,
Yes
you don't know this, but we've been hanging out for, like, an hour each day 'cause I've been just listening to your podcast. So now it's kinda like a two-way...
At least now we're jointly hanging out.
I love it. I love it. Thank you.
So as I always start out, because I, I mean, clearly anyone who's heard like the first minute of this, obviously we know each other, but I would love my listeners , to get to know you more. So I'm gonna take some time to read your bio, and then we're gonna go straight into it. And Michelle's like, "I don't know what bio you have.
We're just gonna..."
which one of the 50 bios do you have? I have several.
It, it'll be the best one.
Okay, good
Michelle Chalfant, MS, [00:03:00] LPC, is a therapist, author, and life coach dedicated to helping people live consciously and authentically. She is the creator of The Adult Chair Model, a transformational model that blends psychology and spirituality to support deep healing and personal empowerment.
Her new book, "The Adult Chair: Get Unstuck, Find Your Power, and Transform Your Life," launched in May 2025, so that just a year ago. Wow. Michelle hosts the top-rated podcast, "The Adult Chair with Michelle Chalfant," with over 11 million downloads, and leads a thriving coaching certification program that's training a new generation of coaches around the globe.
Her work has been featured in People Magazine, The New York Times, and Well and Good. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you so much for being here. I usually do this.
Oh, let me bow. Thank you. Thank you, Laura
And the thing is, so like how Michelle and I know each other, we've known each other for like six years. I've known her for eight because she's been [00:04:00] in my ear, 'cause I was listening to the podcast. And Michelle didn't know this, but we were already like really close by the time we met. So I have gone through Michelle's Adult Share coaching certification program, and when I first started this show, I immediately was like, "Michelle, let's have you on."
I didn't really-- I just, I was just like, you know, just let's vibe. Let's just, let's just be here. And I'm glad that we waited. I think I'm almost like a year into this podcast because I have watched you grow as a leader, as a business owner, as a coach, as a human, and so I'm glad that it took quite some time before we had this time together because that's what I really wanna dive into today.
I love it. Um, do you want me... I think it would be nice. Did you listen to the audio that I, that I sent you, like why this episode?
I listened to it, but I don't remember any of it.
Okay, perfect I remember I was walking
last,
last night and I said, "Oh, [00:05:00] Laura messaged me. Let me just quickly listen." And I was like,
I was like,
"Okay, that sounds good."
good.
There was one question you have, and I did think about that on my walk, but
but
I don't remember anything else you said.
said.
awesome. So I get that it was very organic.
This is on the fly. Just ask away-
Yeah ... and I I thought I would read it because I think it's a great starting point, 'cause otherwise we, we can talk all day, Michelle, and, like,
It's easily,
Um, but
maybe even two or three
yeah, I mean, we've already been talking this whole week.
You just didn't know. It was just a one-sided conversation. It's the same thing.
So listeners, you are in for a treat. This is... Like, I was so intentional about this one. Normally, I just go off the fly, but I'm like, "I'm having the Michelle Chalfant. I must be prepared." So this episode? Most conversations about scaling a business lead with numbers, revenue targets, team size, systems and growth strategy.
But when I look at what Michelle has built with The Adult Chair, I'm getting goosebumps, I see something different. [00:06:00] I see a woman who built a thriving, globally recognized brand by going inward, not just upward. I want this episode to show you, the listener, that leadership at the highest level is not about doing more.
It is about becoming someone who can hold more with less force. Michelle has built a company with millions of downloads, a book, a certification program, a global coaching community, and she has done it in a way that is soul aligned, not burnout fueled. And I don't know y'all , like, I, I want that. I don't, I don't wanna work more.
The real question I want to answer for you, the listener, is this: Who did Michelle have to become to make this possible? Because the answer is the pivot, and I also would like that answer
Okay. So who did I have to become? Mm. I do remember, when you were reading that, I was like, "Oh yeah, that is, I remember all this now." Okay. Such a great, beautiful question, and a great place to start. Um, when you say who did I become, are you talking about recently or [00:07:00] over all the years of my life?
Yeah. You know what I would love? 'Cause I was thinking about, 'cause again, I was like, "Hmm, I have the Michelle Chalfant. Let's be prepared." Because by the time I met you, you had already gone through a transformation, and you'd already changed your, your business model, right? I would like to start to before you started the coaching certification, if we could start there, like at a high level.
So from there to when we met, to
Mm-hmm.
what you had done with your company to now
So the only thing that I knew for sure, I remember I was 25 years old, and I was talking to my mom. in Richmond, Virginia, getting a master's degree at the time in counseling. And, um, I was talking to my mom on the phone, and it was just like this download came through. It was like, "Oh, you're gonna be speaking to really huge audiences all around the world.
They're gonna know you." And I was 25, so that was 1995-ish, somewhere around there. And I remember being startled by that thought, and I was like, "What does that mean? I'm literally getting my master's degree, living in Richmond, don't know [00:08:00] anybody. There's no social media. not really the Internet."
Like it's, "What? Okay, whatever." And I kinda let it go, but I never forgot it. So... And it felt right. I remember it feeling as if what I had heard was truth. It was like an instant intuitive download. And I just continued on with my life. And, um, so when we talk about... Oh, gosh, I'm trying to give you the, the condensed version of all of this. Um, going through my life, I knew I loved helping people, so I very naturally started a private practice as a therapist, but I never liked a traditional therapy because it didn't feel great to me. I knew there was another way to do therapy, and that's when I just sort of brought my spiritual... Not sort of, I did my spirituality into my practice. And within 10-ish years or so, I also be- added the coaching after my name 'cause I realized what I was doing was really a lot more coaching than it was, um, therapy. Because I could [00:09:00] feel just intuitively in working with clients, like, "Hey, there's a root issue here. Let's go get it, and let's move on."
Like, that was my whole thinking, and it... And I'm still that, that same way. And, um- And I went on and I had my private practice one-on-one, and that... I just knew that that's what I wanted to do, so that started growing and growing and growing and growing, 'cause people really liked the sessions that I was giving them.
And then moving from there, it was quite natural.
What had happened was I started the podcast in two, 2014, in December of 2014. You know that story, but after working with a marketing guy, he had said to me, "You need to start a podcast. What you talk about, this adult share thing is really, really, really good, and it's gonna help a lot of people heal and transform their lives. You need a podcast." I was like, "Why? I don't... What's a podcast?" I was like, my first thought was, my first response was, "What's a podcast?" I didn't even know what it was. Never heard of one. My husband was starting to listen to these things called podcasts. And I said, "You mean I have to get on the radio, like a radio show every week?
Every week?" And he's like, "Yeah." [00:10:00] was like, "No, I d- I don't wanna do that." So he wore me down after about a year, and I s- I launched it December of So what had happened was I already had a really great private practice, but then the, the podcast got really big, um, for, again, nobody really knowing what a podcast was. I remember in 2020, we had a party at my house in Nashville where I lived at the time, and we had, um, a 2,000 download party. And I had no clue about numbers. I didn't care about stats. But the guy working with me was like, "Holy crap, how do you have two million downloads?" I'm like, "I don't know. People just like what I talk about, I guess."
'Cause it was, I talk about everyday life things that we all deal with, but I give you solutions and the how to to how you heal and how you transform. So it got to the point where my practice was getting so full I could not take on any new clients. People around the world started knowing my name because of the podcast and, um, and they said...
I started hearing in, in my, in my because I was overwhelmed [00:11:00] with not being able to help, of course, everyone
Mm-hmm.
emailing me, "I want a session, I want a session." And, um, and I eventually said, "You know what?" I just had this... I honestly heard it much like I heard when I was 25. kept hearing this almost like this internalized downloaded chant, which was, people to do what you do.
Teach people to do what you do. Teach people to do what you do." And I said, so this really cool way that I see clients," which was sort of like this therapy/coaching hybrid combo platter,
Mm-hmm.
and it's woven, and the adult chair is woven through the whole thing. I said, "I'm gonna teach people to, to see clients that way."
So- After hearing that for maybe a few months, I said, "I'm gonna create a coaching program." And this is when there were no coaching programs like there are now, and I was like, "I can just go away and do that." So I went away with a girl that worked for me at the time, and I sat her down with her laptop and I just paced like I do, and I just and she was typing away.
And in two weeks time, there was a beautiful framework for the coaching. And that's where really it all began, was, um, [00:12:00] when you talk about a company and scaling and all the things, it really began going from this woman that was seeing clients one-on-one to then moving into this, I think I wanna, I wa- I wanna do something that can affect the world in a bigger way.
So if I can teach people to do what I do and how I see clients, then it will multiply, not because I want Michelle Chalfant's name all around the world, but because I want healing all around the world.
Mm-hmm.
thought, "Ooh, let's do that." So... And I d- also didn't wanna create clones of me. I wanted to create a beautiful model of coaching that people can, you know, try on and put on like a, like a suit, and then take your own personality and it comes through the coaching that, that you do, but the base of it is the adult chair.
So that's where it began. I think that was your question,
It,
how the coaching program
yes. I, so it sounds to me that that was like your first scaling moment, if you will, in your business
definitely was. [00:13:00] And I have to say, way back when in 20... so I started... I wrote that thing in '20. Actually, you know what I think I did start right before then was the first membership, which was called TAC Tribe, which stands for The Adult Chair Tribe. I believe I started that before the
You did
remember people joined that.
They loved it, 'cause they loved the adult chair. They kept saying, "I want this. What is this adult chair? I wanna learn it, I wanna apply it." And people... I mean, I'd get so many emails, Laura. It was, it was unbelievable to me how, you know, people were emailing in constantly saying, "My life is completely transformed.
Thank you. You know, this model plugs into everything." I'm like, I know. Parenting, you know, dating, marrying, marriage, whatever it is. And, um, so it started happening honestly with the membership, when you talk about scaling. So again, going from one-on-one clients, then I added to that a membership.
So then all of a sudden, all these people are joining. I'm like, oh, what's happening? So then I started hiring people to help me, 'cause I couldn't do it all on my own. then I did the, the [00:14:00] coaching program. The first one launched, the one you were in, was in 2020, September. Yeah
Yeah, so can we pause for a moment? 'Cause I can... There's probably a few listeners out there who are, like, feeling the same thing that you are. Like, maybe they've also heard something like, "You are meant to speak in a huge audience." And maybe, 'cause you mentioned that your practice was full, you, you felt overwhelmed.
So can we talk a little bit more about kind of, like, that point where you were like, " Okay, I'm gonna start with a membership"? And I don't know if you felt any sort of resistance or any sort of, "Who am I?" Uh, I would love to hear you speak on that, 'cause I can imagine a listener, and even me when I think about scaling, like, doing something like that, that sometimes we have these voices of doubt and, and fear.
So tell me about your experience with that first scaling, like with a membership. Mm-hmm
Here's the thing that was unique for me is that when I was doing all these things, there weren't a whole bunch of memberships out there, there weren't a whole bunch of coaching programs out there, and to me it was just kind of [00:15:00] fun. Like, "Yeah, that'd be cool. Let's just see what happens if we create this thing."
But I can tell you, doing something as simple as... And even back in 0-... When, when did social media come online?
07.
' 07. I remember hiring, like, an assistant, like, in 2010 or '12 or something, and that's when I was like, "Oh, I think I need someone to help me with my newsletters," you know? And I... They... So they started helping me with that.
And they... I remember they s- them telling me, know, you, you need to start a social media account." And I think I started my first social media account in 2014 that was for the business, so the Adult Child closed Facebook group. And I remember posting, and even on my other Facebook, Michelle Chalfant page, I was so freaking nervous.
I was like, "What right do I have to talk about, you know, how you overcome loss or, or a breakup?" Or whatever it was. And I was so overwhelmed, and it had the impostor syndrome for sure. I was " Who am I?" And so yeah, I had it with that, and I remember it got to the point [00:16:00] where, um, and I was like, "Oh, God.
What if someone comments and doesn't like what I say?" And within, like, the first three posts, someone, like, annihilated me, like, in the comments. I was like, "Okay. So mean." Like, there are some mean people out there. Let's face it. And I thought, "Okay." And of course I felt horrible, and then I got to the point where I was like, "It's, it's okay.
Like, people... There are some angry people out there in the world. Whatever." But that's how I am now, it took a while. Like, you really do realize that it's not about me, and I've done enough work with triggers and projections and all the stuff th- that I've worked with with, with clients, and gosh, the world...
You know, if I post something that someone's not doing, they're gonna react in a n- in a n- in a bad way on me, and it's like, it's not about my post, it's about them. So once, like, that clicked into my head, I was like, "It's not even about me. I don't care. You can write whatever you want. I really don't care anymore."
But then when I started the membership, like Stu McLaren, the big membership guy, like, he was just sorta getting started. Followed him, the coach... There weren't a lot of coaches. So for me, starting these things, it was just fun, and I kinda [00:17:00] backed into it. I mean, I'm gonna be very honest with you. In 2019, 2020, people weren't doing all that out, that's out there right now, and I almost innocently backed into all of it, and all of a sudden all of this stuff is happening and I all of a sudden have a 10-person team. I was like, "I've, I've n- I've never managed a team. I don't know what I'm doing." Um, so it was quite overwhelming. But I, the more people I hired, I was like, "Oh, yeah, you do this." And that's where my inner leader was born, to be honest with you.
Mm-hmm.
Tell me, tell me more about that. Who is Inner Leader Michelle?
Because in the very beginning, um, I was like, "Well, I don't know how to lead anybody. You know, I think I need to hire people." And I would hire coaches and consultants, and I thought... happened was they would suggest that I do th- this in this way, let's just say, in X. You know, "You should talk to your employees like this.
You can talk to your people like this." And I would either feel very aligned with what they said or I'd say, "But that doesn't feel right to me." And it reminded me of when I became a therapist. I remember going [00:18:00] through in my master's and having a supervisor for, like, three or 6,000 hours or whatever it was, I would say, "I don't wanna do it like that." So I had to learn, and I knew sort of how to do it. It was quite clumsy, but I wanna start trusting myself. So trust was a humongous word for me, start trusting my opinions, I'm reading all the books on scaling and all this stuff and growing companies, and I'm like, "I agree. I disagree. I agree. I disagree.
I already know this. What do..." I haven't even gone to... I don't have an MBA. I already know how to do this, I realized. And I wasn't perfect at it by any means, but I had to... I grew into it. Where I'm more of what you're talking about happen was in the second one after I dismantled and started the new company.
Like, there was a lot between 2019 and 2023. growth for me, 'cause I had started really going, again, from one-on-one clients to a, a big company. It within, literally within a year, it just went poof, and it, it was almost by mistake. And I [00:19:00] remember saying, like, "I'm hardly marketing. What's going on here?"
Like, "Well, how are these people finding out about the membership?" I'm like, "Well, I guess I'm saying it on the podcast." You know, how is this happening in the coaching program? Well, I guess a lot of... And people would say in the company, like, " A lot of people listen to you." I'm like, "Well, this is so great. This is so fun."
But it was... It wasn't like I was visualizing this or wanted this. It just happened to me, and it honestly happened very, very quickly. Um, and I learned a lot in that process because I was not standing in the leadership position that I am now, where I am now, and the team that I had around me, the way I was operating, it just wasn't healthy, and that's why I had to dismantle everything in the year of 2023, and then basically hit the reset button and start over.
I love everything that you just said because I have actually talked to, um, like a lot of my clients now and like, y- you know, as we-- I do more like operations work, that kind of thing, and I hear that a lot. It happens really fast. They scaled by accident, and then [00:20:00] it's almost like, um, what's the saying?
Like you're trying to drink out of a fire hose and everything's just coming at you. So I would love to hear more about, uh, what was it like? Because I knew you at that time. You had all these things happening, and you mentioned, "I was not standing in the leader position, I am in now." So who were you at that time?
What was happening, and how did you finally like wake up or realize, "Oh, it doesn't matter how many things are going on, I can't do this anymore"?
So who was I then? I was definitely a woman in power. But I would not say that I was a confident leader. I really wasn't sure, and there were other people in the company, and they would say, "Well, what if you do things like this?" I'm like, "Okay, I don't know. I've never run a company before." And I really didn't know.
I didn't know how to run a company. I had, I had my one company and my... a business where it's one-on-one with an assistant and a marketing guy. So I guess that, that was a business. I have to give myself credit for that. But [00:21:00] even with them, I remember I would give my power to them, and I would say, "Well, what do you think I should do?
What do you think I should do? I don't know. I've never done this before." And what happened was the woman that I was then grew into... How do I say this, Laura? Maybe I was more disempowered in the beginning when it came to what I thought was best, and I gave my power to other people, and then I, uh, throughout those three or four years, I started taking my power back because things wouldn't feel good to me.
I'm like, "That doesn't feel good. I don't like how that feels. I don't like how that feels. I wanna do it like this instead." And then I'd get pushback from some of the people in my company. I'm like, "No, no. It's my company. I wanna do it like this." And there was suggestions given to me by t- I mean, I had 10 people working for me, for God's sake.
It was a lot of people, huge expenses every month. Um, and I was like, "This doesn't feel good." And I had to realign with myself, with my soul, and that's when I stepped into leader. That's, that's when I started saying, "You know what, Michelle? It's time to trust [00:22:00] yourself. Yes, you've never run a corporation. Yes, You've never worked in corporate America, but you're intuitive as hell, and you've got this." Like, I'm gonna align with my soul, 'cause there was a voice that was always coming through my whole life. I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've got that voice. Let me just pay attention to her and my inner knowing." And, um, yeah, I, I learned so much, Laura. That last year was hard. It was really hard. I wouldn't trade it for the world. I learned so much. grew up so much. I grew into the leader that I am today, and I can t- I don't think we ever stop. I will never stop. I'll always keep working on myself and growing.
But I'm k- sorry, I'm kind of all over the place 'cause I'm thinking through this as, as you're asking me this question. I'm like, yeah. The woman in, in 2019 was so excited, and I have always absolutely loved what I have done as far as a career goes. But managing suddenly, almost overnight, like with- within a year, you know, six people, and then eight people, and then 10 [00:23:00] people was like, poof, overnight. watched my husband in his... When... He's worked for so many businesses over all the years, but I remember watching him, and he'd always talk about like this boss, that boss, this owner. Just 'cause you're an owner of a company or a manager doesn't mean you're good at it.
Mm-hmm
and I've, I've just listened to him over 30 years, and I'm like, "There are a lot of dysfunctional leaders out there," and I'm like, "I don't wanna be one of those." But in the beginning, I probably was, to be honest with you. Like, I, not that I was dysfunctional, I just didn't know. Like, I was inexperienced, so I would ask a lot of questions to people that were my peers within the company, and then the more I stepped into myself and took back my power, I stepped into my power as a leader, is when there was a lot of rubbing going on within the company, and it just wasn't healthy.
So I knew I had to hit the reset button
Okay. I'm taking furious notes right now. Um, I mean, you know leadership is like something that's near and dear to my heart, and what I'm really getting from your story is that the moment that you started to remember who you are and to trust yourself, [00:24:00] and to me, that's the definition of becoming a confident leader.
It's not about the position that you find yourself in, because I love that you said, "I was a woman in power, and I was not a confident leader." So I just want the listeners out there to know that that's okay, and I, in fact, I think that's part of the growth, is like when, when you start something new, of course you're not gonna immediately feel confident.
And what I love about what you said is you took your power back. I'm curious, what does that mean? What does that look like? I'm thinking of the listener who is feeling exactly how you were: disempowered, overwhelmed, like, "I don't know how to manage people. I have a team of 10." How would they take their power back?
I started trusting my inner knowing. I started believing in myself, and I just, I just bought into the fact that, "You know what? Michelle, you've never led a team, you're doing it now, and you're a really great human. You love people, and you're really intuitive, and you have knowings about [00:25:00] things." And if you're not this wildly intuitive person, it doesn't matter. What feels right? We all have a sense of this feels right, this feels off, and I was having those over the years, and I ignored them. I started listening and paying attention. And the more I paid attention, the more I wanted to do things in a different way. And the more I did that, the more of a rub was happening internally, and it was okay Because I had to stay aligned with myself.
I call that, of course, living a soul-aligned life. Like really aligning with what is my purpose here? I gave myself a lot of grace, and I said, "For God's sake, Michelle." I mean, a lot of more compassionate self-talk because we're so great at beating up on ourselves and what's wrong with me, and why'd I do this like this?
It's like, hold on a second. I have a beautiful company. I love what I do. I have the most amazing coaches that are going through this program. Um, I have wonderful members and the members... I mean, I've never not loved what I did. But leading people, and I remember, it's, it's interesting, recently I was with ChatGPT chit-chatting about this. [00:26:00] And, and, and the feedback was, oh, this happens to so many leaders that you back into a company almost by mistake, and I was like, that's how it felt. Like all of a sudden I had all this stuff in my lap, and the more, like, the more money that was coming in, the more I kept reinvesting in more people. So it was...
Everything just kept growing super, super, super fast, and it... I just was like, "I gotta take the reins on this company." Like, what is going on? I had to take the reins. I had to make the decision. Nobody was gonna say to me, "Can you take the reins?" I had to say, "You know what? This is my company. I'm taking it, taking the reins.
I'm going to probably make some mistakes. That's okay, 'cause I'm human, I know best." And that's what I had to trust. I really do know best, and if I don't know, I'm gonna go ask a lot of questions. I'm gonna go hire a coach. I think it's so important that we have someone to lean into always, whether it be a therapist or a coach, you know, working on our interpersonal work, and I work li- I will do that till the day I die.
Love that work. If I'm [00:27:00] triggered, I'm gonna go work on it. If I don't have the confidence I need to speak up, I'm gonna go work on that. If I'm not trusting myself, I'm gonna go work on that. Like, I do my work. And important that you also learn how to lead. But most importantly, Laura, honestly, what feels right.
Mm-hmm.
right for you.
Mm-hmm
And when you really start trusting that, really trust it, I realize we're divinely guided. And I've, I've talked about this for years, but I've been put in, in the position with this company to freaking trust it when I'm terrified, standing on the edge of the cliff ready to jump off, going, "Are you seriously gonna catch me?"
'Cause I'm terrified right now, and I had to trust. So that's the other word that, you know, being really brave, soul... And, you know, when you're soul aligned, you have to be brave and you have to trust. In those things, tha- I think that's what a great leader has
Mm-hmm.
And you pay attention. I pay attention to new ideas that come.
I write everything down and I go back to it, and you're guided. The illuminated path, as we say. It's like I know [00:28:00] what the next step is because it just, I can feel it. It's right there. And I talk to other people, like you just know what's next. Can you pay attention and step on that path that is right in front of you and lead in the way that you're being asked or invited to lead?
So I'm gonna end
I love that, Michelle. I just got the five-step process on how you... You ready?
Yeah, let's go
Number one, trust in yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Regardless of what's happening, what position you're in, your responsibilities, trust in yourself. Number two, I love that you did this. You tuned into your skills and what you were good at to further build trust in yourself.
You reminded yourself, "Oh, I'm really intuitive, actually. Maybe I haven't managed people, but I'm really good with people." Love that. Three, you paid attention, so you weren't just... I mean, you never said this, but I hear a lot of my clients and friends talk about, like, they just kind of go along the boat, the status quo.
But you paid attention. Um, step four, you were okay with [00:29:00] rubbing against the team. You weren't... There was no people pleasing, there was no w- "But what if I'm wrong?" 'Cause you trusted yourself, w- goes back to step one. And then five, you made the decision with grace towards yourself, like, knowing you might make a mistake.
And I love that you said, "I know best, and if I don't know best, I'm gonna go find support. I'm gonna go get a coach. I'm gonna do this and that."
Yeah. There, number, wait, what was number four?
Number four was you're okay with rubbing against the team
That was a hard one for me, especially with my roots in codependency. I mean, that was a hard, hard one. Like, really speaking up the opposite of what this person in front of me believes or wants to do, I had to really truly grow into that. And again, that's being more embodied, more empowered, and, and trusting myself.
Like, this is so freaking scary, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I don't wanna say it, I'm terrified, and I'm gonna say it anyway. That was so hard for me. again, a growth [00:30:00] edge. I'm all about growth edges. Because every time we hit a growth edge, I do not wanna stay in my little igloo, which is my comfort zone.
I'm not doing it. Like, I am here to grow and learn and transform myself and others. If I'm not doing it, how in the world am I supposed to teach someone else how to do it? So when I hit those growth edges, oof, wants to jump off the cliff? But we do, and we trust that we're gonna be... that there's a net somewhere. Hopefully not, like, 100 feet down. It's, like, 10 feet down or five feet down, but yeah. There's always a net
I love that, and I love that you're very candid about how it felt. I think that's really important because it's so easy to look from the outside and see,
Totally
that's get- oh, well of course Michelle dismantled her company. She's Michelle freaking Chalfant, you know? And, and so I, I love, like, just your candor in, in talking about the experience.
And if you're open to it, I would love to talk more about what was the experience like? Because you mentioned rubbing against the, your teammates was difficult, and [00:31:00] then you mentioned you dismantled your company.
Yeah
what was that like?
Oh, absolutely horrible. It was, it was... Oh, gosh, there was so much grief because I loved these people. I really, truly loved all of these people that were around me, and we had so much fun together. We laughed together. They supported me well. They, they loved the company. We used to say that we have lifetime contracts with the company.
They all said it, 'cause we all loved working together. And, um, ' cause I'm really fun,
You are really fun.
I am pretty fun. But, um, so it so hard, and it was so sad. So what was it like for me? Um, terrifying because, again, listening to what I was hearing on the inside, and my knowing was, "You can't go on the way...
You can't keep going the way things are going right now. It's not gonna work." For about a year, I was just rubbing heads with certain people in the company and bumping into it, and [00:32:00] I'm like, "Something's not right." I know myself, and I know I don't, I don't rub with people. I don't rub in that way. It's like friction, if you will. And I said, "I can't keep doing this." And the money was going down, and the... I was like, even though, again, outside looking in, it's like, "Oh, look at this. All this money coming." It's like, the money was doing this. We were losing money. More people were being hired.
I'm like, "I don't want any more people hi- in fact, I wanna let some of these people go. We don't need a CFO, for God's sake." Like, I don't need a CFO. don't need some of these people that we had hired. So I started letting those people go first, and I'm like, "I don't think we need all these other people either."
It was just unnecessary, and, and I knew that the, the way that the energy, and I'm a big energy person, as you know, but the energy in the company was getting yucky. It just didn't feel good anymore, and I knew I had to make some really big decisions. And the girl that I was gonna keep ended up having to leave 'cause her husband had something come up, and, and she was not able to stay with me.
So she ended up leaving, which [00:33:00] was a surprise at the end. And again, I was like, "Seriously, God? You're gonna, you're gonna take the one person that I wanted to keep?" And, um And I knew I- that everyone else had to go. They just... It was just done. And I lost sleep for probably two months. I cried for at least two months. I couldn't breathe at times. It was one of those moments like those old HBO movies where like in the shower crying on the floor, that was me. I was like, "What am I doing? I've built this beautiful company. This feels so bad. It can't go on like this. But can't I just fix it? Like, there's gotta be a way." And I, I knew intuitively, like, the fix is the reset.
Hmm.
fix is in completely, like, t- like when you hit your, your phone and it turns itself off and back on. I'm like, "I needed that." I knew it. Because you... No matter how many conversations I was gonna have, it just, it didn't matter. It was just time. So yeah, that happened, and I think I told you.
Maybe I didn't tell you this. Um, I remember it was [00:34:00] right around the time where I was letting, like, the last couple people go, and I was in the shower, like, literally, like, hands on my knees, doubled over, like, taking really deep breaths. Like, can't even send a freaking email, like a mass email, and I've got all these programs running.
Like, I've got two coaching programs in the next month and a half. Like, I, I don't, have anyone on the line that I'm gonna hire. What the hell? What am I thinking? This is insanity.
And I'm in the shower- And I can't breathe, and I looked up at my ceiling and I said, "Seriously, God, are you serious?
You want me to really let everybody go? I don't know how I'm gonna do this and run this company." And I said, I think , you need to help me turn the Titanic around." And I'm telling you what, this loud voice came in and said, and it was not my voice, it was like, don't want you to turn the Titanic around.
We want you to sink it and get into a catamaran." And I was like, " Woo!" Okay. And in that moment, I trusted.
And then the other thing I started doing, 'cause, uh, one of the people I was working with, she was like, "You just have to stay in the moment." Which of course we've all heard that, "Get in the moment, things are [00:35:00] great."
When I tell you I put the practice of living in the moment, I put it into practice like nobody's ever done it. Maybe Eckhart Tolle. Me and Eckhart Tolle and Jesus and Buddha. I... It was the coolest experience as I look back on it. And even going through it, I would laugh. I literally would go from crying my eyes out, thinking I'm insane for firing everyone, to giggling and finding the humor in all of it, and trust. Because when I was in the moment, I had so much trust that it was all in divine time, it was perfectly orchestrated, this is exactly how it was supposed to go down, and it's all gonna be okay. And all of that knowing would be a feeling. When I would sit and look out my window, I remember d- I remember one day I was looking out the window, it was in December, January. I was looking out the window and I was watching a little bird at my bird feeder, and I was just studying the bird. And I started giggling and I go, "Okay. all is right here and now." And then the moment my, my mind would go into the future or the past and think about this or that, where all the [00:36:00] fear and the anxiety would come. The longer I could stretch my time in the moment, the more I would giggle and everything was fine. So I'll stop there.
I am feeling like I'm sweating so much right now, Michelle, which is usually my sign. Yeah, which is usually my sign when I'm feeling something, really profound. And the reason I think this is really profound, I took some notes here. What I love about you as, this badass CEO of, a huge company, well, huge not in people, but just, like, in the impact that you, you bring to the world.
You talk about energy, intuition, staying in the moment, and trust, and that is just so counter to everything that I have seen in the past and even working in corporate. Because I'm, like, even learning this, um, operating system right now. I'm not gonna get into it. But the moment it said something like, "Have a long-term goal.
What's your 10-year plan?" I, like, gagged. I, I, like, just didn't wanna hear it. So I would love to hear from you, Michelle, because just I'm feeling intuitively the new wave of [00:37:00] really successful, uh, entrepreneurs, business owners is someone who believes in, like, energy and intuition and using that as a guidance and not just data and not just spreadsheets, which, hey, you know I love that, too.
Staying in the moment and trusting versus projecting in the future. So I would love to hear your take on that. 'Cause traditionally it's like, "But how do I future project, and how do I plan for this, and how do I scale if I don't think about the future and look at the past to learn?"
Yeah, no I don't do that. I do not live like that. I and I... You've heard me say this before I wait for the energy to arrive, and it guides me into the next step of what I'm going to do. And I don't think about I do have..." Okay, hold on. couple things that I do want. When I think about my future, I don't think about, "This company's going to make $10 million a year."
I don't do that. However, I do have a very private saying that I will say to you, and whoever listens to your show is gonna now know this, but I... And I've said this [00:38:00] to a couple other people, but I... And I s- I sit and think it instead about, "What would be really fun? What would be, what would I like to have?" here's what I would like to have, okay? These are my cre- my... If you wanna talk about what do I wanna create or goals. That's not business goals. It's not a business goal. I really wanna be able to have a home wherever my boys end up living, okay? one. So one right now is in Costa Rica.
More than likely he's gonna live down there, so I would like a home down there. And the other one's gonna move out to San Francisco. like I wanna be able to see them out there too." So there's that. And then the home that I'm in, because my husband is such a pain in the butt when it comes to eating at night and everything, I would like a private chef I think a private chef would be amazing. I would love to have a private jet. Oh, excuse me, private chef, and I thought it'd be really fun to have a private jet. Just saying. In fact, I'll say to Sonia, who works with me now, I'll say, "I'm gonna send the jet." That's like my little phrase, "Send the jet." [00:39:00] So we laugh about it.
I'm like, "You think it's..." I'm joking, it's gonna happen. So when I have fun. It's all about fun for me. I think as souls we're down here to have fun and experience. That's it. Have fun and experience life. So whatever you want, just, you're here to experience it. It's being... It's a buffet. What do you want? So that is how I... That is what I think about. I don't visualize myself on stages and all this stuff. I don't do that. So b- in order to have those things, though, there's gonna have to be some money coming in through this business. Yeah. So I wanna start out with that. But as far as thinking about scaling and how many people do I have to hire and all that, I really trust what's coming. was speaking with someone I think it was. She's "So what is happening with you?" "What do you have go- going on over the summer?" I'm like I'm creating a therapist track, I'm creating an executive coaching program with i'm doing this and I'm doing that." And she goes, "In addition to everything else you're doing?"
And I said, yeah." And I said, "It's just fun." How fun. And then I've, and then there's a new idea, which I'm not gonna talk about yet, 'cause I can feel the [00:40:00] energy coming in. It's percolating right now. In the next podcast we can talk about it, but not yet. It's not here yet. I can feel there's an energy of something new, and I'm kinda getting a taste of it. It's so exciting. And guess what? It's fun.
So I trust really deeply that... But I'm not married to the fact if I have a jet or a private chef and all that stuff, but I think it'd be really fun. I think about it and I'll go, "Oh my gosh." And I've said it many times, "I really wanna live where my kids live. I wanna be able to bounce back and forth." Okay That's how I'm gonna scale. So that's my idea of scaling. It's not in the traditional way
Old-fashioned days.
But what I love is and you know I'm a process person, that's my gift. From what you s- if I could processize it, if that's even a word, it's,
for it.
it sounds
Yeah
like... So first of all, I'm gonna say this like one, two, three, but they're not steps 'cause everyone is different.
I just wanna preface it with that. What I'm hearing you say is you start off with, what would be fun from a life perspective? What would I love?
Yep
not so much [00:41:00] about the thing, 'cause you, you talk about you're not attached to the thing. If you get a private jet, not, whatever, but, like, it would be fun
I'm not gonna be sad if it doesn't happen. I'm already really happy right now. And honestly, it's 'cause I love what I do, love my kids, husband, like everything's fine. what would be fun? It's if you go to a buffet, right? If you go to a buffet, what do you really want there to be on that buffet? Do you want like a certain chocolate cake or cream puffs or mashed potat- whatever. It's yeah, I'd like that thing, but if it's not there it's not... it's whatever. I can move on
Mm-hmm. So it sounds like gratitude as a base layer, and then on top of that, what would be fun without attachment. And, and what I love is, what I love is being in this energy allows you to be open to ideas for your business without you even trying so hard. So you mentioned you have all these tracks happening, and what I notice is somebody had asked you, like a friend had asked you, even though you have all these other things, and you're like, "Yeah.
Yeah." Like, and
Yeah
I love that, and this is why I, like, am inspired by you, [00:42:00] Michelle, and I admire about you because where I tend to go, and I'm... This is where I'm choosing to let it go after this podcast interview, is I automatically think, "How do I make it happen?" And what I notice is you were just like, " Whatever, it's fun."
I, and here's the thing, Laura, I really trust that it's coming. It's just come... I know it's coming. And you know what? And it sounds so trite almost to say, "Can you just do something that's fun?" What I realize is, and I've worked with a lot of people that have a ton of money, tons, gobs, people that you know, pe- when I lived in Nashville, I worked with very big name people, and all kinds, but there were people that you definitely would know and everyone would know.
A lot of these people have t- so much money, they're not having fun. It's not fun. They're not happy. I've worked with so many men that have come in, and even some women, said, I have this, have the houses, I have the blah, blah, blah, I have all this stuff, but I'm still not happy. I'm running this business. Why am I not happy? I've got everything I want." I'm like, "Because it's really not about the money. It's not about [00:43:00] the money." But it is about to me, it's like, what's gonna bring me joy? I don't know. It is. There's a lot of gra- I have so much gratitude. I have gratitude every day, walking on my walk every morning.
I'm... So much gratitude of the trees, of the simplest thing. I don't need to be grateful for my private jet. That's not it. But it's like I'm really grateful for the small stuff, too. And it's an energy that comes through each and every one of us, but we've been conditioned and programmed to live from our mind, chin up, as you know. and that's not it. That's not the way to happiness. That's not the way to joy. That's not the way to wealth. You've got to be in your heart and connecting to that bigger thing than you are, and you can have whatever the hell you wanna have. It just doesn't matter. I'm so clear about that, and you can manifest it instantly, but the mind or the ego says, "No, you can't.
You need a plan. You gotta visualize for 15 days, and then you're gonna do affirmations in the mirror, and then you're gonna go do this, and then you're gonna do that." It's or you just have fun and you align [00:44:00] with what brings you joy And get out of the way. You just gotta get out of the way. The ener- you're an energy being.
It's coming through you and down through you every single day, every minute of the day. But we've been taught it's not that easy, it's not that simple. You gotta do this, and all these processes. No you don't. And when you align with who you truly are, it comes down through you, you have instant knowings. But you're not gonna feel it if you're doing your processes, you're upset, you're sad, you hate your life. It contracts your energy field. Everything shrinks. When you're in joy and happiness and gratitude, everything opens, and then things start showing up. I cannot believe how quickly that we can attract things in our life right now.
It's insane to me. had the thought I needed a doctor for my son. He had this weird fatigue thing going on. Randomly, within two hours, my brother-in-law happens to show up. He's We were... I was talking to him about it. He goes, "Oh yeah, I know it was a Saturday morning. He texts the doctor. The doctor goes, "Yes, have Blake come in on Monday.
It's no problem. It's, I'll sneak him in." I'm like, I... It's like that stuff happens all the [00:45:00] time now. So your business can grow in the same way, and I tr- I really trust it. Really trust it,
love that.
And to wrap up the conversation with in terms of who, who the leader you are today versus who you were, in, would it be 2019? What is the impact of showing up as you are today versus, like, how your business was running back before you became more confident in yourself and trusted yourself the way you do now?
that's a great question. What's the impact?
Not just to you, but also the impact that you have with,
Yeah
like, everyone that you serve now
The first word was I'm more embodied, but the impact is just more grounded. I don't know how to, I believe in myself like I've never believed in myself. I- my self-talk is so positive. I am... And it wasn't. I was like, "What?" In the past I was like, "Wait, is this right?" I was questioning. Now I just own it. I'm owning it. So that ripples down through me into everyone that I work with and everyone that I touch. There's a knowing, like I'm really good at what I do, I don't say that [00:46:00] to brag. Every single person listening to this can say the same thing at least about one thing in their life, I hope. And I know, but I hope that you're saying it. You gotta own it. Especially as women, claim your greatness. What's... You've got something. I don't care if you're a great chef or you're a gardener or whatever it is, or you own a business. Own it. it. We are so tiptoeing around that, and then we got the whole money thing.
It's "Oh, I can't have that much money." I've worked with more women that say, "Isn't that too much money for me to earn?" No. So there, there's a lot of claiming and owning and embodiment. That's why I say embodiment first for myself. But it's very grounded. I know that when people hear me, I hope at least in your audience but I know in my audience, they're like, "You're so real.
You're the same as you are on a podcast as in person." I'm like, "Who do you wanna get? I don't know." And they're like a lot of people change." I'm like, "Nope, just me." So embodied, grounded it changes everything. Honestly, it changes everything. You gotta believe in yourself. You have to believe in yourself, [00:47:00] and I hope the more that I believe in myself, the people with me or around me can then also believe in themselves, because we're mirroring each other every day all the time,
I love that, Michelle. Yeah, what I'm hearing is there's a lot more ease in you. You're a lot more confident. You're embodied. You're grounded. And for a listener who's like, that sounds good and that sounds so woo, and why would I do that?" I also have to say that I've been a follower of Michelle's for over, probably like close to 10 years now.
Um, the way you teach has changed, and I know for a fact that you are impacting more people than you were before while feeling a lot more at ease and not working as hard as you were before
my God.
My old team, we would pride ourselves on working 10, 12 hours a day. We had no time for breaks. It was insane. I do not do that anymore. was out kayaking yesterday at 3:00. I'm gonna kayak right now when I'm done with you and, yeah I don't... I do not, and I've told my [00:48:00] whole new team, everything is about, here are my words, everything on, in my company now is about ease and flow, and everything that we do, if it's not ease or in the flow, we do not do it.
Don't do it. say to them, "Does this feel easeful? Does this feel like it's in the flow, though?" No. I go, "Then we're not doing it. Stop it. Just stop it right now." No. There's no stress. I do not want stress. In fact, the word that I cannot stand now when people use it with me, it's the B word. Not the B word you're thinking of. Busy.
Oh.
When s- when someone says, " Oh, I can't have lunch with you today 'cause you're so busy," I go, "Ugh." It, the energy of busy feels horrible to me. I'm like, "Oh, no. That's not me anymore. Do you wanna have lunch? Let's go have lunch." "When?" "Let's go." So
I love that
i- it's gotta be easeful, flow, efficient is the other word. We do everything so efficiently now. We do... I have one girl that's doing... In my old c- company, I had two people doing the g- job that one person is doing now in half the amount of time.
[00:49:00] That's how I roll now. It's it's just... And it's fun. We all have so much fun again together,
I love it
that's the new energy on the planet. This is the way businesses can and will be run as we move into the future. The sooner you jump into this ship right here, the... What I'm talking about and you and I are talking about today, it's gonna be easier for you in the future. It just is. We gotta get out of the mind and drop into the body and feel our way in, into the next thing, into the business growth, into scaling, all the things.
Mm-hmm. Oh my God, it's so good.
Michelle, thank you so much for making the time. This is exactly the conversation that I knew we were gonna have. Like, super powerful. You didn't just talk the talk, you, like, showed us that you walked the walk in terms of, like, how you yourself transformed as a person and as a leader, uh, as a CEO.
Um, if people want to get in touch with you, follow you, and all that jazz, how can they find you?
Just go to theadultchair.com. That's my website. Everything is there, [00:50:00] but all over social media, I am Michelle Chalfant. So YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all the
Amazing. I'll put all of that in the show notes, listener. Don't you worry. And final question, I don't know if you remember this, Michelle. I ask this... Okay, great. It'll be a surprise again. Um, I ask this question for all my guests. If you were an item in the coffee shop, yeah, what would you be?
I
What would you be and why?
If I was an item in a coffee shop, okay, I would be... Right away when you said that, I'm gonna go with this, A chocolate-covered espresso
Stop it. You said that last time too.
I
Yeah. Yeah. You can say it again
remember what I said. I'm gonna be a chocolate-covered espresso bean because really sweet on the outside and really strong and bold on the inside. I say that? I don't
You d... And what was funny last time is I had you on with Elyse and Jessica, and Elyse said that answer when I had her on.
Oh, she
yeah y'all are connected
No, that was the first thing that I saw. I was like, "Oh yeah, chocolate-covered coffee bean. I like
Yeah.
Okay."
are delicious and, um, [00:51:00] uh, really easy to, to overeat and then you're like buzzing and you're like, "I wonder why? It's so weird." Yeah, that is why
Thank you so much for having me. What a beautiful
Thank you, Michelle
If this episode hits something in you, good. That's not an accident. The discomfort you're feeling isn't a sign that something's wrong with you. It's a sign that you're done. Done living in the eh, done waiting for it to magically feel better, done being really good at a life that doesn't actually fit you anymore.
And if good enough stopped being good enough a long time ago, that's exactly who I work with. I'm Laura DiNisio. I'm a coach for high achievers who are done pretending that checking the boxes is enough, and are ready to do something about it. If that's you, let's talk. Book a free clarity call at leadandtact.com/booking.
We'll figure out together what's actually going on and what your next [00:52:00] aligned step looks like. And if you're not quite there yet, that's okay, too. Subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. Share this with a friend who needs to hear it. You probably already know exactly who that is. And with that, I'll see you next time
Big thanks to Michelle Chalfant for being so open and so real in this conversation. This is exactly the kind of story I created this podcast for, because when you hear someone else say the thing you've been feeling but couldn't quite name, something shifts. If this episode resonated, share it with someone who needs to hear it.
You probably already know exactly who that is. And if you're sitting with something after this conversation, that feeling that good enough stopped being good enough a long time ago, I want to talk. [00:53:00] Book a free 20-minute clarity call at leadintact.com/booking. That's where we figure out together what's actually going on and what your next step looks like.
All of Michelle's details are in the show notes. Go show them some love. And with that, I'll see you next time