Ep. 36: Leadership, Authenticity, and Why Burnout Isn’t Worth It with Tony Marquez
What does real leadership look like when growth comes with pressure, stress, and hard trade-offs? In this episode, Tony Marquez shares the unfiltered truth about hockey-stick growth, burnout, authenticity, and what it actually takes to build a sustainable career.
In this episode of The Pivot Point, I sit down with Tony Marquez—senior technical leader, systems engineer, and program manager with over two decades of experience in space, defense, and complex systems. Tony and I go deep into leadership, exponential career growth, and the hidden costs that often come with “success.”
We talk openly about what Tony calls hockey stick growth—those periods of rapid responsibility and steep learning curves—and how two major growth phases shaped both his career and his health. Tony shares what it was like to step into roles he wasn’t fully prepared for, lead in unfamiliar domains, and manage the pressure without losing himself completely.
This conversation also explores authenticity, identity, and how tying self-worth too tightly to work can quietly erode your personal life. From Kanban boards and productivity to burnout, boundaries, and leadership misconceptions, this episode offers grounded wisdom for anyone navigating ambition without wanting to sacrifice their wellbeing.
If you’re striving for leadership, questioning hustle culture, or feeling the early signs of burnout, this episode will help you rethink growth, success, and what it really means to lead well.
What You’ll Hear
• What “hockey stick growth” really feels like in real life
• Why burnout is not a badge of honor
• How to lead without knowing everything
• The role authenticity plays in sustainable leadership
• Using fundamentals to navigate unfamiliar territory
• How work identity can impact health, family, and fulfillment
“You’re going to get there. You don't get a gold star for making it at 30 when you could have made it at 31.”
Connect and follow Tony on LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-marquez-a069a73/
If this episode resonated, share it with someone who’s navigating leadership pressure or rapid career growth.
Subscribe so you don’t miss future conversations, and if you’re looking for clarity on your own next move, download the Heart-Aligned Career Transition Starter at
https://www.leadintact.com/freebies/heart-aligned-career
or book a free 20-minute Clarity call https://leadintactwithlaura.as.me/free-clarity-call
Proceed as if success is inevitable—because it is.
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You are listening to the pivot point where we unpack the defining moments that shift careers and lives. I'm your host, Laura Dionisio, a founder of Lead Intact, and my mission is to spotlight the raw real stories behind career pivots, the fears, the hopes. The messy middles and the bold decisions that follow if you're feeling stuck or quietly wondering what's next?
I hope these stories help you see yourself a little more clearly and inspire you to start moving toward your own dream life. Let's begin.
Laura D: Tony, welcome to the pivot point. It's great to have you and listeners, you're in for a treat. He's my first male guest. That's not on purpose, but out of all the males in my network, I couldn't have chosen better. Tony, thank you for being here.
Tony: Glad to be here. Glad to be the first dude.
Laura D: So I'm gonna go ahead and introduce Tony, but for the listeners, I've known Tony for like almost 20 years now, which is kind of crazy.
Laura D: We, we met at work, uh, it was my first job. Outta college, so you're in for a treat, especially after I read this very impressive bio. You ready, Tony?
Tony: I mean, I wrote it, but yeah, of course I'm ready.
Tony: But for everyone else, I hope you're ready.
Laura D: Okay, here we go.
Laura D: Tony Marquez is a senior technical leader, program manager and systems engineer with over two decades of experience delivering complex mission, critical space and defense programs across both industry and the military. His work includes satellite systems, GPS, and navigation technologies, with a strong track record of bringing advanced concepts into production and modernizing high stakes operational systems.
Laura D: Tony has led teams of more than 200 F 50 people across multi-billion dollar operational systems and satellite programs. His leadership has strengthened execution, transparency, and supplier accountability, directly contributing to improved program outcomes. He has also guided satellite programs from early development through production while developing cross-functional teams to operate more efficiently.
Laura D: But wait, there's more. Tony held senior technical and leadership roles , serving as a chief engineer and associate director on GPS enabled and Precision Defense Program, supporting both Navy and Air Force missions earlier roles at Booz Allen, Accenture, and as a US Air Force officer further shaped his ability to lead complex systems across organizations.
Laura D: Tony holds a BS in electrical engineering from Loyola Marymont University and an MBA from Pepperdine University. He is known for his leadership and systems level thinking outside of work. He's an avid tennis player, cyclist, Brazilian jujitsu practitioner and traveler, bringing the same discipline and drive to his life as he does to his career.
Laura D: Welcome, Tony. Yes.
Laura D: I have to tell you, Tony, like when I read your bio, I was like, two thoughts. I was like, damn. Tony's mad. Cool. I'm glad is my friend. And the second one was like, I really gotta update my own bio.
Tony: Well, I, I will tell you right now, there was no AI that contributed to that zero. 'cause I wrote that before AI was a thing.
Tony: Mm-hmm. And also, um, well, so I, I, that's like kind of a proud point, right? But also it's long because the people that reviewed it, they're like, Hey, um, we're old school and we, you should put everything in there. So I disagree with that part. It could be shorter.
Laura D: Really?
Tony: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well,
Laura D: okay. I'm, I'm curious about that.
Laura D: Because like I said, when I read your bio, I was like, my bio's too short. So I'm curious why you think it should be shorter. Like what would you take out and what would be different?
Tony: Uh, I would take out the domain expertise. Mm-hmm. Uh, the fact that I worked on GPS the fact that I've worked on spacecraft, uh, it's kind of irrelevant.
Tony: Uh, actually it's not irrelevant, but it's, uh, what people are looking for are at, at least this stage in my career, are leaders, um
Laura D: mm-hmm.
Tony: And, teammates. Uh, so regardless of what domain you're working in, that's what people want. So great. You could work on GPS, it makes your job a lot more efficient if you're learning, leading that kind of project.
Tony: Mm-hmm. Uh, if you're, if you're building spacecraft, at least you know all the subsystems and you know your background in systems engineering, that's great. But honestly, uh, I would've left all the domain stuff out. Okay. I would've just said, yeah, I would've just said proven leader delivers product and, um, has amazing hair.
Tony: That's all. I really,
Laura D: you miss the amazing hair. Yeah. Like the listeners, like you go on YouTube so you can see it.
Tony: It is, it is a thing. But I get this from my wife. It wasn't like this in college at all.
Laura D: Yeah, this was a glow up. Thank you. 2
Tony: 25.
Laura D: It
Tony: was, I blame COVID actually. 'cause it was a, uh, Korean drama thing.
Laura D: It was a Korean trauma thing.
Tony: Yeah. Like during COVID. 'cause you watch a ton of Netflix right. In your home all day. And then, so my wife discovered Korean dramas. Mm-hmm. And those dudes, their skin and their hair is amazing and they just move in slow motion. Like all the time. And so yeah, I had to up my game.
Tony: I, yeah, so I had to look more attractive to my wife, so
Laura D: Well, it looks great. So here's the thing, Tony, like I actually disagree about like. What you said about the bio, and here's why, because I thought the same, especially with the space I'm in right now. Like I'm in the coaching industry, I'm in like operations partners, so I was like, oh, let me not bore people with the details of like my own career journey, like with engineering specifically.
Laura D: But when I read yours, there's something about hearing maybe not so detailed. Like exactly what you did in those domains, but it's really impressive and I, and I'm glad that you hadn't changed your bio yet, because what I want the listeners to get out of like today's episode is somebody who's badass as you, who's like, did GPS, like, director, then program leader, whatever, you know, like.
Laura D: Still relatable. So I actually am glad that you left the bio the way it is. You have inspired me to incorporate some of my other stuff in there. So after this I am gonna use AI because now, AI now exists. So yeah, like, I, I just wanna start there actually.
Laura D: Let's start with like when we first met that program, because we were kind of in the same level, so to speak, right? Yeah. We were same. We were both functional team leads. And I, I'll tell you listener, I am not where Tony is.
Tony: Well, to be fair, to be fair, I'm a little older than you
Laura D: okay. There's
Tony: that.
Laura D: There's that. But like what I really wanna emphasize is kind of like how, um. How like your career, like our careers clear, clearly diverged, but we still are really good friends and respect each other professionally. And I, and I would love if you could just walk us through your professional journey and like why you made the decisions that you did.
Tony: Okay. Well, um, this all kind of relates to why I wanted to actually, I'm gonna edit, uh, my answer to your previous question and it relates to how I'm gonna answer your next question. The reason I wanted to change my bio was 'cause there's the engineer in me. I'm all about being succinct and, brevity is a thing, right?
Tony: So if some, if someone's gonna talk to me, I'd want them to see three words, one sentence. Mm-hmm. And then that's it. That's the takeaway. But I also don't wanna lose authenticity. Authenticity is a thing to me. So to answer your question, how authenticity relates to, uh, my journey is, um, I was an Air Force officer before I met you.
Tony: And a lot of times when people get out of the Air Force they don't have, the, uh, how can I say it? They don't have the Raytheons, the, uh, Lockheeds or, um, you know, just large companies calling just because we don't have a lot of the experience a lot of engineers have when they get out of college.
Tony: They go straight to technical. Uh, when we are in the Air Force, uh, or in the service, uh, a lot of times we go into a service related industry where we met. So that's how I ended up where I did. So I was there for a few years at a couple of companies, uh, actually, I'm sorry at one company in the service based industry.
Tony: And then I figured, okay, this is a good, great starting off point, but I wanted to learn that was the. Engineering light side, let's say the front end engineering side. Then I wanted to know the policy, who comes up with all of this stuff. And so I wanted to go and explore that. So I moved to the government side, did that for a few years.
Tony: And so now that I had the military part, the soldier part, the front end engineering part, and the policy part, I realized after all like 10 years, I hadn't got my hands on any hardware. And so I went straight to a Prime defense contractor got my hands on all kinds of hardware. And honestly, that was.
Tony: The most stressful but rewarding part of my career. Every stop had a benefit, but that one was probably the most hockey stick type growth. Uh, I've had, uh, in my 24 years of working. Uh, and then after that I wanted to, I had done the chief engineering thing. Then after that I decided to go into the business side, which again, uh, hockey stick type growth.
Tony: I didn't know what I didn't know. Uh, and now I have all that behind me. I have all that experience behind me and here I am.
Laura D: I'm curious when you say like, hockey stick growth, let's talk a little bit more about that.
Laura D: Especially because like mm-hmm. We both started in an industry where we didn't touch hardware. Mm-hmm. Um, and then in a way we were responsible for advising decisions with regards to those hardware.
Yeah.
Laura D: And, and so like, for me, at least I relate to what you said about Oh. But I wanted to get my hands on hardware per se.
Laura D: And for me it was a little bit, I was driven by curiosity, but also kind of like a little bit, it, it was scary 'cause it's like, I, I don't know. I'm so good at this other thing. So what was the experience like for you and did you come across, um, like. Other people when you first jumped into, like, let's just say the private sector who were looking at you like, well, what, what do you know and what you, what have you been doing the past 10 years?
Laura D: Like, why are you just now here, type of thing?
Tony: Well, it, it comes down to authenticity, right? Because when people, when, when our customers on the service side, were asking me for advice on how to do X, Y, ZI was telling them. But I realized that I didn't really understand everything that I was talking about.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: At least from a front end and a backend engineering perspective. I could tell 'em that a requirement, Medex, and this, these are the elements of a good requirement, but when it came to the backend and said, Hey, this is how your product will result, or these are things that you have to look out for from an engineering perspective, I realized, and I admitted to myself that was a massive hole in the advice I was giving, but a lot of, and that was an honest assessment of myself.
Tony: So I'm not gonna speak for everybody else that we were working with, but I said I didn't have that, I wanted that. And so I could confidently say if I ever go back, Hey, this is how it really is.
Tony: And so that's the authentic part I was talking about. I realized the advice I was giving was not authentic.
Laura D: Okay. That makes sense. And then like, tell me about like the hockey stick. 'cause you told me there were like two moments you mentioned when you were going through your career path.
Tony: Yeah.
Laura D: What does that mean exactly? Like walk us through that. Okay. And what would you tell young Tony?
Laura D: If you could go back in time and. Prepare for the hockey stick, like, what would you say?
Tony: So I just heard that term by the way, uh, a couple weeks ago. And so if for, uh, for listeners, uh, hockey stick type growth means exponential growth. It's another term for that. And so the first time I heard it, I was like, I have no idea what the hell this person's talking about, but that's what it means.
Tony: Right? So what would I tell myself in terms of preparing for that hockey stick growth? Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know. I, I really don't know if there's anything. You can say, even if I knew that the, it was coming I didn't know in what form it would come.
Laura D: Did you know it was coming?
Tony: Uh, I knew when I was in it.
Laura D: How did you know you were in it and what was your response to that?
Tony: I knew I was in it because lemme try to put it in terms of, um, of lifting. You, a lot of your listeners, a lot of your community come from, uh, the power lifting or the CrossFit type community. Yes. And so when you go and you're about to hit a lift and obvious, you fail, right?
Tony: You fail at a, a weight that you've never hit before, and it's okay. You fail, right? Eventually you get there, uh, after, retooling some things, uh, updating your form, some coaching, and then magically some session, you automatically hit it, right?
Tony: So that gap between when you couldn't hit that goal weight to when you did hit that goal weight and the pain in between is when I realized I was in it.
Tony: So that pain, that frustration it came in the form of, um, sleepless nights. Uh, so physical responses, it came in the form of not knowing. And realizing you didn't know from senior technical folks, uh, realizing you didn't know during a briefing, you mess up. So it was that growth those little, Hey, you messed up.
Tony: Hey, you missed the weight. Hey, uh, you failed to lift. Those were the type of moments for me that I knew I was in it.
Laura D: And I'm curious when you, later on in, in your career, you mentioned that you had another hockey stick growth moment. How was that different or maybe the same as when you first went through your first hockey stick moment?
Tony: So my second hockey stick moment was, um, from a domain perspective. I had applied for a lead engineering position, but it was not a chief engineer position. And so when I went and accepted the offer, I walked in the first day and they said, great, you're gonna be our chief engineer.
Tony: I was like, whoa, that is not what I signed up for, but it's cool, right? Um, and so I was chief engineer over a domain that I had not worked in before. So the other piece of hockey stick growth that I had was to lead the technical effort for a domain that I had never worked in before.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: Never.
Tony: So they're like, yeah, you're gonna lead the effort to build a spacecraft. I was like, what? Excuse me. That's crazy talk. So again, hockey stick moment, reviewing textbooks, videos seeking advice from senior technical folks, right? And all being on the down low. 'cause you can't let anyone know that your chief engineer had never seen this before.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: So it's that hockey stick type of effort. But this is, I guess it's a little different in the l weightlifting analogy. 'cause I didn't lift anything yet. I knew I was gonna fail. I was like, mm-hmm. I just lifted up weight and I was like, oh my gosh. So it, it was tough. But yeah, it was another hockey stick mo type moment.
Tony: So you ask me now, after four years of doing this now I can do it. Mm-hmm. It, it was pretty rough.
Laura D: I think that's really huge because when I talk to, like my clients or friends of mine, there's a lot of nervousness that that happens when they think about like a position that they're not qualified for.
Laura D: And it sounds like you weren't even, you applied for a lead engineer position, I think you said.
Tony: Yeah. It was lead system, engineer position,
Laura D: lead system, and then you got chief engineer. And so walk us through the moment of like that Oh shit moment. Like, I'm a chief engineer, I'm doing this. Like what went through?
Laura D: Your mind and what kept you going, even knowing you're like, I don't know if I'm prepared for this.
Tony: So what? To be clear, it wasn't my first time as a chief engineer. Uh, okay. I had been a chief engineer already. So to answer your question, I had buoyed my, uh, my preparedness, or I guess my preparation for the role was buoyed in what I knew.
Tony: How to be a chief engineer. Okay. Even though I didn't know the domain. So, um, I knew the leadership part of it. I knew the process part of it. Uh, I knew from a system engineering part of it the critical things that you needed to do from a product development standpoint. So that's where my foundation was.
Tony: But when he asked me, Hey, you know, what, what type of, um, fuel would you use? How would you, engineer your thermal system? How are you gonna, make room and accommodate your electrical, uh, your harnesses, right? How are you gonna make that all fit? I sat there. What? Excuse me. So that's where the hockey stick growth, kicked in.
Tony: I had to go and understand all of that, uh, but rooted in my foundation of being a chief engineer, um, on a different domain.
Laura D: Okay. What I'm really getting from that I think is huge is that you rather than think about, I can't do this. I'm gonna quit. I don't know this domain.
Tony: Yeah.
Laura D: It sounds like you leaned into the foundation of what you knew you started there, and I think that's like a huge takeaway for the listener, because I hear that a lot, like, why would I apply to this job?
Laura D: Or how can I start my own business? Because it's like, but I've never done it before. And I mean, I guess that's one way to look at it. You've never been a chief engineer in this domain before, but you didn't see it that way. You saw it as like, oh, but I have these other skills. And I'm curious when you thought about the things that you didn't know, 'cause you know, when you first start, right?
Laura D: Like you don't necessarily know what you don't know, like. How did you approach that and how, what can the listeners take away from your approach that even if they're not in the engineering space, going for a chief engineering position, like what could they take away
Tony: that it's okay to ask questions? It's okay.
Tony: Even as the leader to ask questions. It's okay. As the leader to not know. There's a lot of misconceptions and I still hear it to this day and it frustrates the hell outta me that, a lot of people think that the chief engineer is the,, smartest person in the room and they have to know everything.
Tony: If they don't know something, it's embarrassing. That is not a true statement at all.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: The chief engineer is probably the best leader in the room. The PM is probably the best leader in the room, but one of the things that I've done, since I came to this realization, Laura, is it's okay to ask questions.
Tony: It's okay to say, I don't know. But the one thing you must do is you better go and find out.
Tony: So that's the lesson that I learned and that's what got me through it.
Laura D: Okay.
Laura D: So what makes, I guess pivoting to, uh, you said the chief engineer is like the best leader, so just so like listeners who aren't in the engineering space also, like what would be, uh, what are some lessons that you learned as far as what makes.
Laura D: A good leader. 'cause you mentioned that there, you still hear some misconceptions sometimes about that.
Tony: Yeah. I'm gonna name some things that were my foundation as a chief engineer and, and really comes down to the fundamentals. So when I was a chief engineer, I leaned into my fundamentals.
Tony: My fundamentals, were, good requirements, construction, right? Mm-hmm. And then requirements decomposition, right? And going down to all that, to that lowest level. So you can go and justify the hardware that you're gonna select. And then you go back up the other way and then, you know, put everything together, or sorry, test it, put it together.
Tony: Then make sure you have everything, at the system level that applies. To any product, any domain that you're working on. So remembering your fundamentals and then carrying those fundamentals out regardless of the domain is the one thing that kept me tried and true. You'll, it was insane to me that people forgot the fundamentals and got wrapped up in the technical details and thought that the technical details of the domain were more important than the fundamentals.
Tony: It's always the fundamentals that get you through, accented by the technical details of the domain, never the other way around.
Tony: So that's what got me through. To answer your question, uh, sorry, did I, did I answer the original question or?
Laura D: Yeah, it does because you, you mentioned that basically what I'm getting from it, if I were to zoom out outside of the engineering space, what makes a really good leader is that you don't get caught up on the details.
Laura D: Whatever. Domain or field you're in, whatever the fundamentals are. So in systems engineering, it's very much requirements, traceability, and then how do you, break it down, et cetera.
Tony: Yeah.
Laura D: Remembering that instead of like, I guess fighting over the, the technical details of, or, so it sounds like a good leader as somebody who doesn't necessarily have to know everything Yep.
Laura D: But know to zoom out. And is not afraid to ask questions.
Tony: Correct? Correct. You, you, you gotta zoom out. You have to, and you know what, it's, this is where come becoming the best leader in the room is non-negotiable for a chief engineer or a pm Is that. It's okay to lean on other people. The other people can go and inform you of those technical details.
Tony: You have to be intelligent enough to understand them. You have to be intelligent enough to relate them to the fundamentals that everyone's leaning on you for.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: But it's not on you to figure it out for everybody else. It is not on you, uh, to, to reinvent the wheel every single time, every single project.
Tony: It is not on you. That's what your team is for. Uh, so actually, let me answer your question in the best way possible. The key to being a good chief engineer is knowing, or a good leader, is knowing that you can't do it alone.
Tony: That is the number one thing. A lot of people think that being the chief engineer and being a good leader is doing it alone and doing it all by yourself.
Tony: That is mm-hmm. 1000000% not the right way to do things.
Laura D: I mean, I guess you could do it, it would just make it a lot harder.
Tony: Well, yeah. I mean, you can, right? But I mean, human error goes up you know, like whatever, what's everyone else getting paid for? And honestly, how do you know that you're gonna be right?
Tony: Like, are you gonna validate yourself? You're gonna check yourself? I mean, come on, right?
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: So, no, it's not about you.
Laura D: Yeah, I love that. And I kind of wanna switch over to like what we were talking about before we hit record.
Tony: Yeah, yeah.
Laura D: And that is, um, because from what I got, like in terms of leadership, regardless of what industry you, the listener are in, really know what your foundation is.
Laura D: Lean on that, uh, it's okay to ask questions and just know that you're not meant to do it alone. Yeah. And I'm curious, as you ascended in your career, I. How did that impact your personal life in terms of like what we were talking about before we recorded?
Laura D: What are some of the things that you took from work that you applied in your personal life?
Tony: Oh, so, um, tools, uh, there's good and bad, uh, that I've gotten from work and translated it to my personal life. The good part, and we've talked about this a few times, is, tools, uh mm-hmm. Some of the tools based on our conversations that we've had outside of this podcast. For example, I've. You, I use a Kanban board in my personal life and I totally thought it was gonna be not that satisfying to see everything move from left to right.
Tony: Uhhuh, wait,
Laura D: hold on. Explain Kanban board for those
Tony: who don't know
Laura D: what that is.
Laura D: Okay.
Tony: Yeah. So, I don't know if there are other ways to arrange it, but the way I arrange it is a list of tasks that I have to do, list of tasks that I am doing, and a list of tasks that are done.
Tony: And listeners, I think it was a couple years ago, Laura had told me that Tony, this is one of the tools I use from a productivity standpoint.
Tony: I read a little bit about it and one of the posts on Reddit said, it is so satisfying
Laura D: Uhhuh
Tony: to see those tasks moved across that board and that that list of. Done gets so much longer and that list of to-do and doing gets so much shorter. And I was like, nah, that's not a thing. I went and I was like, oh my gosh, it is so cathartic.
Tony: It is so, so cathartic to watch. And so the other thing you told me to do was put a picture underneath the Kanban board. And I have one of my family, so I can go and every time I'm moving a Kanban card. From left to right, it reveals more of the picture of my family. I'm like, that is so awesome.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: So, so that's one of the things that, uh, I've taken from my work to my personal life. That's been a good thing.
Laura D: Okay. And I'll pause real quick 'cause I, I feel like some of the listeners are like, what is this con, what do you mean? Can you explain a little bit the difference between like, why is the con more satisfying versus a traditional never ending to-do list?
Tony: Uh, my Kanban board is bound. It has, uh, it's bounded by the week. Your to-do list may not be bounded by the week. It may not be organized. It may be for the year, the month, uh, and it. Just maybe super, super long, right? So that's one thing that I have against to-do. Lists two typically to-do lists to me.
Tony: Were written down. Uh, my Kanban board is digital, so there's a lot less finger cramping for me, so, oh my God, to write this list. Uh, and also, listeners, for all of you that are, 30 and under, uh, I bet you you don't write anymore. You gonna type everything. So when you go and you go back to your written to-do list, you bet you don't even understand what you wrote.
Tony: So that's a thing, right? So that's the reason I don't like to-do lists. Another thing about to-do list is, uh, we didn't talk about this, but I get metrics from my to-do list or from my ban board. Mm-hmm. 'cause I color code my personal and my work. And then when I go to my backlog. When I see that I've not done pushed things in the backlog that are personal, I see them all my personal color.
Tony: Then that tells me, I was like, dude, you are totally paying attention, way more, too much attention for work. So that's what the metric tells me.
Tony: That's I
Laura D: number. I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And listeners, we, uh, we, this we talked about know Tony and I nerd out, like not just in this conversation, but if you're curious, it's ba basically Trello that we use that's not, there's more software out there, but Trello's nice.
Laura D: You have an app on your phone and it's free. So there's, and you can change the background.
Tony: Yes. Yes. I, I like it. And so here's another thing too. So at work we use, and we have an agile uh, we execute our program via an agile method.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: And the team got a look at my Kanban board and they were like, oh, you have the program Kanban board on your computer.
Tony: I was like, no, that's my personal one. And they said, you use. You, you run your laugh. Life like agile. I was like, well, actually, actually, I, I am in my 40th sprint this year. And, um, and they were going and they were like, that's super nerdy of you. And I was like, no, it has nothing to do with program management.
Tony: Had everything to do with life. But since you're asking I want, you know, how do you feel when you move cards from left to right? Uh, when you move stories from left to right and you go and you, um, you take credit for them and they're like, you know what? It wasn't really satisfying, but when you put it in the way that you see it in your life.
Tony: It is super satisfying. Mm-hmm. Tony, as a team lead, I, as I see those stories get burned down and the backlog gets smaller and, you know, our progress is, uh, she's like, yeah, I totally nerd out the same way you do, and I get the same level of satisfaction. So I'm like, you're a nerd. See Nerd, nerd,
Laura D: nerd. So how else do you feel like the, uh, the personal and professional have like, helped you?
Laura D: So maybe it's like, so in this case the Kanban board is like the professional helping the. Personal. Are there some instances where like there was something you learned in the personal that helped you in the professional or maybe more tools in the professional that helped you in the personal?
Tony: I would say more the, um, the professional has helped me more in the personal mm-hmm.
Tony: Uh, in terms of, um. Engaging with other parents. You know, I'm the, the proud bat dad of two kids, and when you have kids, you encounter a lot of people you normally wouldn't hang out with just because your kids are the same size. Mm-hmm. And you've go and you're like, all right, I guess I gotta hang out with this person.
Tony: And then you go and like, because you're not working together and you go and you're like, oh, our kids are both three feet tall. I guess I gotta hang out with you. And so the. The social aspect that I've learned from work. Has allowed me to deal with people that I normally wouldn't hang out with. And that's not a bad thing.
Tony: Mm-hmm. It's, um, you know, I normally wouldn't be open to it is my point. But now because of work and because of the, all the different personalities I have to deal with different suppliers, different levels of leadership or you know, program staff, I have to adapt my personality a lot and. Having to do that, 'cause my kids are different sizes, therefore different parents.
Tony: Yeah, I, I find myself that that's a beneficial skill I've gotten. Uh, but there are some bad things I wanted to tell you about that I've gotten Okay. From work that I've translated from personal. So, brevity is a thing I told you earlier mm-hmm. In this prep. Yeah. Um, wives don't appreciate that.
Tony: It's a thing, ladies and gentlemen, uh, is a thing. So when you at work, a question, during a program review, maybe you know, you're asking a yes or no question. That will totally fly when you run a meeting.
Tony: That will totally not fly at home. Yeah, so when you go into program staff and you know, is the, is the budget this yes or no?
Tony: Cool. You're gonna get an answer if you ask that same type of question to your wife, that couch. Is your jam that night. So,
Laura D: so, okay.
Laura D: This makes me think of another question, which is there's probably like a professional hat that you wear. Professional Tony. Yeah. Uh, and then there is family Tony, and then there's maybe tennis Tony.
Laura D: And, um, this question of identity is something that I've been like exploring myself. Like how do you navigate that?
Tony: That is a good one. That is a very good one. That's a tough one actually. Do you find that there's conflict in your
Laura D: identity? I, yeah, I used to. I used to. I'll tell you my answer after you answer because I don't wanna like
Tony: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tony: Don't lead the witness here. But, um, it goes down to authenticity, right? I, I'll say this, not everyone. I'll say I didn't figure it out. I didn't figure out that identity. Uh, and it took me years to figure it out, and I think I'm still figuring it out. I'll say that my identity my value was attached to work and when it's attached to work it became the dominant third in my life.
Tony: And the fact that I even assigned it a third is crazy, right? Everyone's like, man, you assigned work a third. I mean, that's nuts, man.
Tony: Because the other third was tennis and the other third, or like my activities and the other third was my family. And I'm sitting, everyone's sitting there.
Tony: I was like, whoa, that's a third to work. That's nuts. And so when my identity was a third or more, it started impacting the identity I had as a dad. Which is probably why I was asking my wife yes or no questions, and I would get punched in the face metaphorically. But, and this also translates to kids, because kids at a young age, they totally see how you are and they subconsciously mimic that.
Tony: So when you see your kid. Ask people yes or no questions, you're like, whoa, that is gangster. Oh my gosh. So that's pretty rough, right? And then also the 10 side, you expect results the much faster than the process allows you. So literally when I saw playing for 20 years and I started playing again, I expected results just like that.
Tony: And I would throw my racket, I would yell.
Tony: I was, yeah. So my point is the identity that you gain from work can affect the other two thirds of your life.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: So that's a me thing. I don't know.
Laura D: How have you balanced it now?
Tony: I've balanced it by taking those metaphorical punches to the face to heart.
Tony: They are, they, they are a thing, right? Because she told me, uh, she told me, she was like, yeah, yo husband, I'm not your employee. I'm your wife. And I was like, oh my gosh. I didn't even realize I was doing it. That's how bad it was, right? Mm-hmm. So, uh, so yeah, that was a thing. So that's how I, I reconciled it.
Tony: I also reconciled it because remember those hockey stick pieces of growth?
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: Um, there were physical consequences to that. I experienced physical consequences, uh, to that growth because with growth comes with pushing yourself and with pushing yourself comes stress. Mm-hmm. Physical stress. So experiencing that.
Tony: I landed in the hospital for four days because of that first piece of hockey stick growth. I dunno if I ever told you. I dunno if ever told you that. No. Yeah, no. It was a thing. It was crazy. And so that's, that's one of the things I learned too, is that hey, you know what, you kind of have to, um, separate these domains in your life between work, family and your activities, but also, not only separate, but you have maybe have to dial one of them down.
Tony: Mm-hmm.
Laura D: And
Tony: one you dial down is the one that's causing your stress. Mm-hmm.
Laura D: And
Tony: so that's how I. That's how I separated 'em, and that's how I've gotten better.
Laura D: Okay.
Laura D: Now I'm curious, I asked you this earlier, but with this context in mind, like knowing that you got sick after that first hockey mm-hmm.
Laura D: Like really sick hospital four days and hospital sick.
Tony: Yeah.
Laura D: What would you do differently? Like, what would you tell the Tony of that hockey stick moment?
Tony: Oh man. Um,
Laura D: like you're gonna go through the hockey stick moment anyway, but like, how would you advise. Your younger self to maybe not end up in the hospital?
Tony: Hmm. That's a tough one. ,
Tony: If I had to tell myself what to do differently knowing that it was coming, I would probably say it's not worth it. And the reason that is, is because you go and when you're in the hospital for four days and good, good thing, it was nothing crazy serious.
Tony: Right? But stress is a thing like listeners, stress is absolutely a thing. I would tell my younger self, it's not worth it. Um
Laura D: mm-hmm.
Tony: Or it's okay if it doesn't happen as fast as you want it.
Laura D: That's huge.
Laura D: And, and you know, the reason I'm asking this specifically Tony, is because I have a feeling there's a lot of listeners out there who were like, but I wanna be like Tony, like super successful and be chief engineer at some point, or like whatever in their equivalent in, in the field they're pursuing.
Laura D: Mm-hmm. And, and really societally we are taught to hustle, right? To push, push, push. Yeah. Yeah,
Tony: yeah.
Laura D: And so what would you say to the listener and probably to younger you who would push back and be like, what do you mean. Subconsciously they don't know their identity and their worth is tied to Yeah, how much they perform.
Laura D: So like what would you say to that person who is like, no, I, I must be successful and et cetera.
Tony: I would say that it's okay to wait. It's okay to not push. That's my advice to the listeners. That's the advice I would give my younger self, because honestly to everyone that's listening to this
Laura D: mm-hmm.
Tony: , You're gonna get there. I guarantee you. You're gonna get to where you're gonna go. You will.
Tony: And it, and one of the things I've noticed, 'cause I have a lot of, um, what's the generation now? Alpha?
Laura D: I think so. Yeah. Gen Alpha.
Tony: Okay. No, that's not my kids. The kids are Gen Alpha, but I have Gen Z.
Laura D: There's Gen Z after the millennials and then Right.
Laura D: Okay. And then Alpha after. Yeah.
Tony: So I have a lot of Gen Zs, working with me and , their mantra is to rise as high as they can, as fast as they can. And so my mantra to them is if they ever experienced the physical manifestations that I had, because of that accelerated growth, my advice to them would be that if you're experiencing any kind of physical manifestations, it's not worth it.
Tony: Not worth it right now. And ladies and gentlemen, you're gonna get there. You, I guarantee you, you will get there. It's okay if it takes another month, another six months, another year. Another couple years, because, I can tell you that it's not worth your body. It is not worth mm-hmm. Family and not worth anything because you're gonna get there anyway, man.
Tony: And you don't get a gold star for making it at 30 when you could have made it at 31. You're not.
Laura D: Yeah.
Laura D: And I think what, what I would add to that too, like actually to bring it back to the, the Kanban board of like the metrics, right? Yeah. Is like, I, I would probably also ask a listener , who are you beyond being successful at this job?
Laura D: Because we were just talking about how in our youth, which was a while ago, identity was tied to work and performance. Right. And probably I would advise the younger me too or listener, like who are you beyond being successful at this job. And if you were to have a Kanban board and you had the color coding or labels or whatever.
Laura D: How much of that was all work and how much is the other parts of your life? I didn't think that was important until way late.
Tony: Right.
Laura D: Yeah.
Tony: It's funny that a lot of people say that they, um, and actually I have a real time story. I haven't told you about this since I've seen you. But, um, looking at the metrics of our con for our kan board, I would get really mad that I realized that my backlog was all personal stuff, right?
Tony: And I just came to that. And listeners, if your backlog is more personal, you're putting off more personal tasks than you are work tasks you might wanna look at that. Right. Because if you're like, oh, I don't have time for anything, it's like, no.
Tony: 'cause you're not making time for it.
Laura D: Right?
Tony: You're not making time for those things.
Tony: But a real time thing, last time I saw you, we were talking about, I was vying for an executive role,
Laura D: right?
Tony: Yep. Uh, I found out that I didn't get it. Okay. And I went through the mo, I went through the emotions, right.
Tony: Because I would've been, it would've been many firsts for me to go and get that kind of role. But actually I was thinking about it last night and I was, I was okay with it. Uh, I was okay with not getting it, uh, not because it was a testament to my ability, but because looking at my Kanban board, I would have more time.
Tony: For those color coded personal items.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: On my Kanban board and I was like, it's cool. I'm good with that. So more time with the kids, more time to play tennis and honestly. I now don't have to look forward to, um, the possibility of another hockey stick type stress moment. Mm-hmm. Because if I was, I, I may have a third hockey stick moment.
Tony: As much as I try to stave it off, it may happen. Mm-hmm. So that's why I was, I was cool with it. I was like, I'm good. It's okay.
Laura D: And now you mentioned like, okay, I could have gone through a third hockey stick moment. Do you think there's anything inherently bad with having a hockey stick moment?
Tony: No, I don't think it's bad.
Tony: We're all gonna go through them. We are. But to make them not so much hockey stick, but to make them, I don't know, I don't know, like a longer hockey stick. Um, that's what you're gonna try to do. And that's we're all, my point is we're all gonna go through it, but
Laura D: Right.
Tony: To make it not so vertical would be the, the goal.
Laura D: Right. Especially not if it impacts you physically.
Tony: Correct. And I'll also say too we only have so many hockey stick moments in our life, and I can tell you being over 40, being over 45 my tolerance for hockey stick moments is probably not as strong.
Tony: As the first hockey stick moment I had in like my mid thirties, because that was rough, right? I was like, oh my gosh. The second hockey stick moment, which happened in my like early forties, I was like, oh my gosh. And so now I haven't had a hockey stick moment and I'm like, oh man, do I wanna, do I really wanna do that again?
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: Okay. Well I'm gonna hold, maybe prolong it a little bit.
Laura D: Okay. Do you think it's possible to have a hockey stick moment but not have like as much of a, uh, that was hard. Type of reaction?
Tony: I would probably say something, uh, if I realized I was going through a hockey stick moment, I would say something not only to myself, but not only to my wife but also to my leaders.
Tony: It'd be like, Hey, I'm having a hockey stick moment. And then this is on them, right? This is on their leadership style. If they realize that, you're having a hockey stick moment and they don't care. Get, get it done. This is a business that's probably telling about their leadership style.
Tony: Uh, so yeah. That's what I would do differently. I would say something to the people that mattered both in my chain and in my life, but also to myself that it's okay to say something.
Laura D: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That sounds like an increased sense of authenticity and vulnerability that you through the moment.
Tony: Yeah. And awareness, like super awareness.
Laura D: Right.
Laura D: So like if you had that same level of authenticity and awareness when you went through like, I dunno, either hockey stick moment, how do you think your experience would've differed?
Tony: Uh, a number of things could have happened.
Tony: We may not have made progress on the program the way that we did.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: Because it was it was a small program, not a lot of people, not a lot of performers. So you were doing a lot of, work yourself. So the result may have been different. We may not have got the business that we did.
Tony: But I had to have been okay with that. So that's one thing that's a possible outcome or a change that may have been different. During the second hockey stick moment. I may not have, learned as fast as I did, like, you know, putting in the effort, studying, getting up to speed, and we may not have had the repeat business that we got.
Tony: And, but all the change here is, I, I, I would've had to have been okay with it.
Laura D: With it, with you not getting the results that you had designed. Correct. Correct. Yeah. The reason I'm asking Tony is because, like, it's not because I have like an, an answer, but just because having gone through burnout myself and my career multiple times because of multiple hockey stick moments and having gone through like.
Laura D: The end of, I just don't wanna put myself in the position anymore where I might end up there.
Tony: Yeah.
Laura D: I am starting to realize, and again, listener, this is me saying, Hey, I'm still growing alongside all of you. I'm starting to realize that just because that was my experience as a star performer, it doesn't mean that it has to be that way and that it's possible to be both successful in a short amount of time while not.
Laura D: Feeling burnt out. And so that's why, I'm asking these types of questions because I'm curious, do you feel the same way or are you like, oh no, I, I think it requires a little bit of, uh, sacrifice and stress, inherently,
Tony: Everyone has their limits, right?
Tony: But I, I will say that not, there is not one. Boundary set for everybody. And what I'm saying is that if you are hitting your limits mm-hmm. You, you have to be okay with saying, Hey, I'm good. Because burnout is not sexy. Burnout is not, a badge of honor. Working till you drop is not a badge of honor.
Tony: So that is a lesson I got from going through all this. I thought it was a badge of honor. I thought I would be respected more. I thought that I could tell people, Hey, I did X, Y, Z, but no. Going back to your original question, no, burnout is not a thing that I would recommend to everybody, and you don't need to do it.
Tony: You don't. Mm-hmm. And if you feel that you're for your limits, if you feel like you're approaching it. If you're having physical symptoms, if you're having you know, affecting your personal life, or your work quality is going down, you're probably getting burned out and, you're doing no and any favors by going through it.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Laura D: And what would you advise the listeners who are like, I think I'm starting to experience some of those things that Tony's talking about.
Tony: Stop . Take a mental health day. Take a mental health week, and go away and reset. It's okay to pause. It's okay to go outside. It's okay to, shut down and gather yourself.
Tony: Mm-hmm. There's no shame. A lot of people say they, they associate taking a break with a weakness. Mm-hmm. And it's not, it's not a weakness. It's not at all, it's resetting. So you could be better for the next time around. So that's what I would recommend.
Laura D: That's so good.
Laura D: Tony, this has been so good.
Laura D: If there are listeners, especially if they're young engineers and they're like, I really wanna get to know that Tony dude better. Also what, how would they talk to you and connect with you?
Tony: They can get ahold of me via LinkedIn. So you can look me up, Tony, with a y. Marquez, um, someone asked me the other day, they're like, Hey, do you spell your name with an i with a heart on top of it?
Tony: And I was like, excuse me. So, no. Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way, so please reach out to me. I, I'm a huge proponent of helping young folks, figure out how they're gonna get to that next step because it, not everyone's journey is linear. , And also not everyone's journey is, gonna be without a little bit of pain.
Tony: But the best thing you can do is realize one, it's, it doesn't have to be linear. And also too, that pain may not be worth it. You'll get there and , that pain is not a badge of honor.
Laura D: Mm-hmm.
Tony: And it's okay to work through it a different way.
Laura D: That's so good. And I have one last question that I ask all my guests.
Laura D: Hmm. Before we, we wrap here. If you were an item at a coffee shop, what would you be and why? It could be a drink, a pastry. Somebody had said security camera, like you don't even have to be like a food or drink.
Tony: I would be the cardboard sleeve that you put around the coffee cup.
Laura D: Okay. Why?
Tony: Because I am probably the cheapest thing in the coffee shop. And if you ever watched that movie with Patrick Dempsey, he was the inventor, like, I think it was like princess something or whatever, but he plays a, he plays something.
Tony: He gets the girl and to get the girl, he sells his shares because he invented the coffee sleeve around the, um, the coffee cup. And he made someone a millionaire, but he loved the girl so much that he was willing to sacrifice that. And I was like, oh my God, the thing is worth so much money. It's so cheap and so ingenious.
Tony: So I would wanna be. Cardboard sleeve because I'm so cheap, I am so valuable, so indispensable. And, um, I'm used to get the girl
Laura D: Oh my God. And, and everyone wants you.
Tony: The coffee sleep. Yeah.
Laura D: The, yeah, the coffee.
Tony: Everyone, everyone needs you. Yeah.
Laura D: Yeah. Everyone needs you. Assuming it's a hot drink.
Tony: You know what? That's funny that I'm gonna clown the next person that puts that on a, on an ice drink and be like, bro, what are you doing? You're using me and you don't even need me. Gosh. So that's what I would be
Laura D: Awesome. Tony, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate having you on.
Tony: Thank you so much for, uh, for having me. I, I enjoyed it and um, I look forward to talking to you again. Bye listeners.
Laura D: All right, bye.
Tony: Okay. End. Bye.
Laura D: Okay. Just kidding. We're back.
Tony: That was really funny. Just kidding.
Laura D: Just kidding. We're back. Okay. The reason we're back is because post recording, Tony and I were starting to talk about the question about identity and um, and, you know, I just have to be like, I'm gonna be authentic. Now, I, I realize, 'cause I told Tony, I never answer the question with regards to, how I feel about identity.
Laura D: Because, when I have a guest, I usually just kind of mute myself and let the guest speak. But I'm realizing now that that's not doing anyone any favors. And if I wanna be authentic, like Tony, what you were saying, I would be better served acting as I would in an actual. Coffee conversation, so
Tony: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laura D: I just wanna start there and, let's see, what were we talking about, Tony?
Tony: We were talking about identity and, identity as it relates to authenticity, so,
Laura D: right.
Tony: I can replay part of it. But what you were alluding to was, what I think a lot of people do, a lot of people, how they run their lives is, they have, they feel like they have to be separate and distinct identities for the situation that they are in.
Tony: So, for example, family, Tony, work, Tony tennis, Tony, whatever. It's really tough trying to be three different people, throughout the course of the week, the month, or the day. Right. And what you were saying is that being somebody else, being inauthentic is wasted energy. And when you're going and doing something that you're not good at, doing something that you don't wanna do, man, that is like stressful.
Tony: You do not need, like why not be yourself? Am I replaying the part of the conversation correctly?
Laura D: Yeah and how I came to that realization before I even got to like, that's wasted energy is that I used to have multiple personas, like Tony was saying. So I had the professional, Laura, I had the gym, Laura I had alone time, Laura, I had vacation, Laura, and I really thought that I needed to put in a persona.
Laura D: And I just thought that's what you had to do. But then I realized as I was going through my own personal development, like my own personal journey is that how I was acting professionally was impacting how I was acting in my friendships. Personally. Yeah, personally. And things that were happening personally were also affecting how I was professionally.
Laura D: So like. What's the point? So it's, it was kinda like a lie that I was telling myself so that I could feel like I'm in control when the fact of the matter is subconsciously I'm, I'm the same person the whole time.
Tony: Yeah. So kind of like speaks to like the, remember you've, you've heard people say this, oh, I have to turn something off.
Tony: My question is, why is there even a switch? Right.
Tony: I mean, why do you have to, why does there have to be work, Laura? Why can't work Laura and personal Laura be the same, right? Mm-hmm. So there should be no distinction between the two. And this speaks to authenticity. And it's it's interesting that you say this because I specifically took a class at, at work, and the cla, the name of the class is called the Authenticity Code.
Tony: Literally, that's the name, right? The authenticity code on how to communicate with your teams and executives in an authentic way. So cool. We're, we're jiving with that, right? The theme of
Laura D: Yeah.
Tony: Communicating authentically.
Tony: And I go and I, I put these things to practice right?
Tony: My first time, you know, putting like post class, you know what they do? They go and they're like, yeah, you know what? The way you communicated, uh, I know it's authentic, but we want you to do it this way.
Laura D: What
Tony: the hell? Like. What, just really dear. Yeah. They're like, what? You just spent all this money teaching me how to do X, and then you were like, tell me not to do it that way.
Tony: Like, all right. I guess like here we are.
Laura D: That's so interesting. Okay, so for me, like what finally, um, well, so I'll, I'll share the first story. I started doing my, my personal work. Like really diving deep, like probably 12 years ago now. And the reason why is because I was doing my professional Laura overachiever, high performer, that kind of thing.
Laura D: Mm-hmm. And this was when I had the temporary assignment to move to Binghamton, to upstate New York. And I was sharing with Tony off, recording that. I started having panic attacks and I was just like, well, this is inconvenient, like this is impeding my performance.
Tony: Well, this is a speed bump.
Laura D: This is crying. Tears crying. I can't believe. Yeah.
Tony: Okay. Yeah.
Laura D: That's how I felt. And so this is when I started learning about the importance of meditation slowing down. Not that I was good at it, but I started to get really curious and then it went from this feeling of obligation just so I could perform better to like, oh, this is such a great thing.
Laura D: I feel great. And I noticed that me, like I just thought this was personal, Laura, right. But I noticed when I worked on myself, it was impacting how I was showing up at work in a positive way. Yeah. So that was my first hint of like. Oh, I think we're the same person, no matter what role you're currently playing.
Laura D: Yeah. Now that doesn't mean I suddenly was like, authentic all the way through. No. That it took like 10 more years. So listener don't take 10 years. But then the second time was like the pandemic happened, right? And so everything shut down. I was home alone going from nighttime PJs to daytime, PJs not going to the office and, and like I just.
Laura D: And, you know, work was still there for me. So I was really fortunate. This is not a complaint, it's just that's what it was. And I just decided, I'm tired of pretending like I have my shit together. Yeah. And so when my teammates would be like, oh, hey Laura, how's it going? I, I would just be honest and be like, honestly, I'm fucking tired.
Laura D: Uh, I was supposed to get two teammates. I got nobody. How are you?
Tony: Oh, so you're the person that took that casual, like small talk question. Hey, how's it going? Yeah, it's fucking terrible.
Laura D: Yes.
Tony: Whoa. Okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is supposed to be a water cooler conversation, girlfriend.
Laura D: Yeah. But here's what happened.
Laura D: The thing is, the reason I was doing that before is because I thought I had to live up to a certain persona. Like, you work with me, Tony, what was I known for? Right? Like, uh, Laura, she'll get it done. Throw the hardest thing at her, she'll figure it out, right? And so my identity was wrapped up in that and pandemic happened and I was like, I'm done.
Laura D: And I stopped caring about, what the perception of me would be really is what happened. And I noticed when I started being more authentic, actually my teammates started to be more supportive and started to be like, Hey, how can I help you? Like proactively. And so that's when I was like, oh, not only does this feel better.
Laura D: I actually feel more supported when I'm not playing the part of who I thought I'm supposed to be.
Tony: People probably could sense it too,
Laura D: right? That what? That I was pretending.
Tony: That, or that you were being authentic going the other way. That you were being authentic, right? Mm-hmm. And people probably respected it, right?
Tony: Because was it you? No, no. I heard it today, but I've always felt like this. 99% of the time I'm only reserving the 1%. 'cause these people are crazy. Um, 99% of the time people mimic the attitude. The practices of their leader, whether they like it or not, whether they like it or not. And so those that were leading, that you were leading, that were following the people that were following you, they could probably sense that you were being authentic.
Tony: That you were being, mm-hmm. You. And they're like, dude, I feel so much more comfortable that Laura is actually Laura, and I don't have to pretend she's not pretending. I don't have to pretend. Thank you. You know?
Laura D: Yeah.
Tony: Yeah. So it's a thing. It's totally, totally a thing.
Laura D: It is a thing. Did we say anything else that we felt like the listeners should hear?
Laura D: I think that was,
Tony: uh, I think that was it. But um, as you can tell, listeners, I've been, I'm now one hour and 24 minutes into my podcast career and I've gotten a little bit more comfortable, so I dropped an F-bomb. So it's nothing against you. I'm just way more comfortable now. So this is me being authentic is my point.
Laura D: We started off authentic and then we ended very authentic.
Tony: Super authentic.
Laura D: Yes.
Tony: Super authentic. So, thank you Laura. Thank you for pressing record again. 'cause I think that's useful for everybody to really emphasize authenticity. 'cause it's, it's important for you, it's important for the people that you lead.
Tony: And, it is just better all around. So please don't lie to yourselves. Be
Laura D: don't lie to yourself. I love it. Thanks.
Tony: Okay, now I'm good. We're good.
Laura D: Okay, for real. Bye.
Tony: Okay, bye Hugs. Bye. Good to you. Bye.
Big thanks again to Tony Marquez for sharing his story so openly. These conversations are such a reminder that no pivot is too messy, too late, or too unconventional. If something he said resonated, don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with someone you know who needs it, and when you are ready to start your own pivot.
Head to www.leadintag.com for free resources or book a free 20 minute call with me. I'm here for you.